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October 18, 2009

Why Do We Fight?

This post started as random thoughts about pacifism, and the war at home over the wars abroad. Everyone knows the liberal view about the illegality, waste or stupidity of the missions in Iraq and Afghanistan. The paleo-conservative view contains some of these ideas and a strain of isolationism. We know the standard conservative view.

Buried in the politics is something else - doctrinaire or convenient or ideological pacifism - or just the decadent unwillingness to fight for liberties that seem self-evident and self-generating to millions of people. I want to know what Nickie's readers think. The subject covers a lot of ground, from the two-legged jackal yapping at the man or woman in uniform, on up to the philosophical summit of Gandhi.

Gandhi is a special case, but he teaches the class. His satyagraha, or "firmness in the truth" (widely thought of as passive resistance) was combat without violence. It wasn't the limp sogginess of passivity, because Gandhi was fighting for something; it mattered which side won. He fought against the British Raj at great risk to himself. Within his campaign for Indian independence was also the calculation that violence against him or his followers would highlight his moral cause.

He also endured terrible condemnation for his misunderstood 1938 essay, where it could be inferred that he proposed that European Jews commit mass suicide rather than violently resist German anti-Semitism. Orwell was partly responsible for this interpretation, and the story is more complicated than can be told here. The point is, pacifism, non-violence, anti-war-ism involves risk and an unyielding moral strategy. If it's to be taken seriously, neutraility about winners and losers, and old saws about violence never solving anything, are not sufficient. Whether or not you have to fight, you should have a philosophy about it.

Without checking this fact, I think we've had legal standards for Conscientious Objection since about the time of World War I. For most young men this only matters when there is active conscription. For every other man, for the conscientious consenter, the world isn't an easier place, it's a world as cold as frozen steel.

It's simply not true, as the moral prig would have it, that violence is the easy way. It's the hard way; there's nothing harder. In millions of unmarked and marked plots, and in the rusting shells of blue-water vessels on the sea floor, lie as many conscientious consenters as a wing of Heaven can hold. They came from everywhere, and every nation honors them not because its people love war, but because we grieve for a world which made their sacrifice necessary.

Can't we ask the man or woman who knows a better way to tell us what that is? The freak protest, the wail in the legislature or the pie in the face of a returning Marine? Is that the best they can do?

43 comments:

Doom said...

It is difficult to get my head wrapped around the article, but I will try.

I am rather cold about this. I believe even the principled pacifist has lived off the fruits of their neighbor's children for too long. I realize there is a difference between types of pacifists, but in the end, it is only slight. Especially since many of these "pacifists" quickly use the force of the law when confronted personally.

I do believe violence solves issues. Ask Hitler, Soddom Hussein, and the kid in third grade who thought I should give him my lunch money. Gaddafi surrendered his nuclear weapon production equipment and supplies as well, simply out of fear when we finalized Iraq.

In the end, Gandhi was murdered. Right or wrong, it ended some debate. As well, he never faced Hitler's or Stalin's thugs, even if the powers in India were harsh at the time, they were not comparable. Other pacifists who did face these fared no better, such as the Buddhists in Tibet.

I do not advocate violence. It is merely a tool among others. In the proper time it has uses. In a free society, it is generally used wisely and sparingly, on a personal, national, and international level. Voters do not like losing their children and grand children. But they are willing to understand their personal choice to risk sacrifice for a real and greater cause.

This might get me in trouble, but... I think pacifism is a female survival technique. In the grand scheme of things, it does not matter who a woman's partner is in a strictly animal way. But violence endangers both her and her offspring, so she natural rejects violence. Further, women are truly not capable of competition in this field, they learn this very early, so the subject doubly becomes anathema to them. Some men see that as wise, not animal instinct or simply cannot compete themselves. Or, as is the case today, merely use the instinct to gain power, with no real grasp of the notion philosophically or natively.

CI-Roller Dude said...

I just had a very simple view...I fought to keep my fellow soldiers alive. I didn't care about the politics of it all.

Rhod said...

Doom, you're right about the principled pacifist whose safety, comfort and possessions are guaranteed by the willingness of others to use force...miltary or police or just neighbors.

The Gandhian principle is that engaging in violence damages the soul. His ascetic life, nevertheless, was made possible by force or potential force elsewhere, which doesn't undermine the moral, just the practical.

The reluctance to fight might have some Darwinian purpose other than simple survival...I'd think that the willingness to fight, along with the ability to imagine losing, might be more of an evolutionary conundrum.

Rhod said...

CI makes a sound point. You do it for your mates.

Teresa said...

Doom,
If pacifism is a female survival technique, than I'm a male trapped in a woman's body. And, I know several liberal females that I think are trapped in a males body. A bunch of damn pussies. But, I think the pacifists and liberals are the quintessential pussies of the day. I am of the opinion that we as a nation must fight to defend our safety, and our democracy. We must help out nations in which their people are being oppressed by brutal dictators instead of sitting by idly waiting while innocent civilians are murdered. The United States is the beacon of freedom and I do think it is our responsiblity to bring freedom to the oppressed.

Sorry to run on...

Opus #6 said...

Some women do in fact have higher testosterone levels than others. That may explain why women have differences in opinion on the use of force/violence. Theresa and I both understand the concept of peace through strength. There comes a time when that strength must be used.

The women online, as a whole, however, seem tuned out to this debate. Certainly the members of the Mom Blogger's Club have a minority who share my views on patriotism. I do not despair, though. More minds are changing, as these hard lessons come flying at us. And many great causes were won by a passionate minority.

Another great thing about America is that the pacifists self-police their homes on gun control. They don't have them. And the warrior-types *do*. That gives us a kind of an edge, I like to think.

Doom said...

CI-Roller,

How did you end up in the service in the first place though? In a free nation, you could have done anything else. I know, college inducements, but... Really? Just that, the wonderful pay, and the great food? *grins*

Teresa,

I only said originated, possibly. And I bless the ladies out there who understand, who have gotten beyond simpler nature. Though I really can't see you as a man, even in a woman's body. You are just brighter than your liberal friends in fundamentals. Most men have gotten beyond the animal urge to fist fight in the streets, as well, mostly. If we are merely animals we would deserve socialism just as cattle deserve their lot. I know we are not just animals. I hope that clears it up a bit?

Rhod said...

Strange. Mrs. Rhod hates violence and contact sports, raised three soldiers, loves the Sopranos but loathes the male type depicted there, and would use a gun if she had to.

I can't figure you folks out.

McGonagall said...

Teresa said...
"The United States is the beacon of freedom and I do think it is our responsiblity to bring freedom to the oppressed."

Teresa - LMAO - the US of A has a history of overthrowing democracies and replacing them with dictatorships:0(

Do you think the folks in the tribal areas of Pakistan really want your unmanned drones raining death and destruction from the skies? I think the world can do without that kind of democracy.

Let's face it - the US is an imperial power that has used it's military might to extend its control over much of the world. This was done, not for moral or altruistic reasons, or even for self defense, but for power.

(Cue abuse from Rhod.)

Rhod said...

I wouldn't "abuse" you, and for God's sake, Scunner, stop whining and blubbering.

You said your piece, and there's hardly an original thought there.

But, go light up a Turkish and pore over some Frankfort School advice for lovelorn anarcho-socialists. You'll feel better.

McGonagall said...

"I wouldn't "abuse" you, and for God's sake, Scunner, stop whining and blubbering."

Har har har - yer gettin predictable Rhod.

The handle is "Scunnert" which means someone who is pissed off. When you call me "scunner" you're saying I'm a pain in the ass or the thing that pisses you off:0)

"You said your piece, and there's hardly an original thought there."

You're quite correct although I thought it would be news to Teresa.

" ... go light up a Turkish and pore over some Frankfort School advice ..."

I smoke contraband cigarettes from a native reserve - don't like Pasha tobacco - and haven't read Fromm and co. in years. Honest.

McGonagall said...

Teresa I think you'll find that the military budget of the US of A increased under democratic presidencies.

Other than that let me just say that:

Yes Teresa, there is a Santa Claus.

Rhod said...

The post was about pacifism, Scun (whatever, your patois is tedious), a subject apparently beyond your depth.

Euro-Brit snobbery is for another time.

Teresa said...

Sunnert,
You have proven that liberals brain capacity can not go past the intelligence of a kindergartner. We conservatives have proven that we have great intelligence and have a much greater brain capacity than you could ever understand.

I live in reality and believe in the philosophy of realism.

You are delusional, and believe in living in a fantasy world.

I think there's a communist country calling your name. Go have fun with Castro, or Chavez.

McGonagall said...

Alrighty Rhod - here's my take on pacifism: It might work as long as you're too numerous to be annihilated or your enemy is too much of a gentleman to annihilate you and yer kin. Otherwise it's Arbeit Macht Frei.

However, refusing to fight a war of aggression is not pacifism - it's just good manners.

McGonagall said...

Teresa, don't let facts get in the way of your thoughts. Who needs facts when they've already found the truth?

BTW - making fun of my learning disability and fragile mental state is just rude:0)

Teresa said...

Pacifism is a pipe dream. It is something to strive for, but in the case of defense and terrorism it is highly unrealistic.

Do you honestly think our enemy is going to exhibit good manners to us? If so, that's another pipe dream. What you call aggression, I call a necessary war for our livelihood, for our defense of country and its citizens. We've already tried having good manners under Democratic Presidents and its only caused an enormous amount of heartache to be brought upon Americans.

Rhod said...

As I noted below at the other thread, Scun, your commentary has a pattern.

From insults to snobbery you quickly slip to flippancy, hack cliches and childishness.

If you're the quality of the off-the-shelf anarcho-socialist, no wonder you're a one-ring circus.

Prattle on, comrade.

Teresa said...

Scunnert,
There's such a thing as informed consent. Learning disability? Then we are on equal footing.

Sort of. Your still a liberal. So you get the handicap in this case.

Opus #6 said...

Pacifism is a virtue that children can afford only when the brave ones stand between them and the bad guys. The other pacifists are all dead.

McGonagall said...

Rhod buddy - yer a piece of work so ye are. Here I've been offering contrary views to spice up your scribblings and what do I get for my troubles:

"From insults to snobbery you quickly slip to flippancy, hack cliches and childishness."

Ach - ad hominem attacks of the weakest kind.

You folks take yourselves far too seriously on this blog.

Opus #6 said...

Scun,
It is not that opposing views are unwelcome. But you have been rude to my friends Teresa and Rhod. Then slipping back to say "just kidding, get a sense of humor" is something mean kids say when called on their misbehavior.

Rhod said...

We certainly made the mistake of taking you seriously, Scun.

Your defense of yourself is the sophomoric excuse that you've somehow risen above us, and it was all child's play. Anyone who followed the exchange knows you're full or it.

Scun, you're no challenge. You know that. Whatever makes you feel better.

Anonymous said...

Scunny,

I believe it's important that your comments remain published here. There is a style in your criticism and assertions that I believe so perfectly captures the loose intellectual fluff that so easily passes for a point of view.

I take great pride that US Conservative political opinions are so strongly based in what some would consider the absurd combination of cowboy-protestant-wiseguy reactionary thought. Sometimes, the simplest road to peace is whipping somebody's ass, helping them up, and discussing new terms over a cold beer. Diplomats and political scientists tend to prolong the war, the pain, and the process.

Anonymous said...

Scunnert, aren't all wars "wars of aggression"? Funny. I guess Obama wants to fight one with penalty flags, time outs and such. But generally, wars are pretty aggressive and violent. I think about the only war you are willing to fight is a war of words, and that you fight only passive-aggressively. Having invented the language, you should be much better at it.

To me, both Doom and Roller Dude are right. Pacifism doesn't work. Ultimately, our friends die if we aren't willing to fight.

Honestly, Rhod, I think debating this subject with postmodern pacifists is a lost cause. They don't want us to fight because it works and it signals meaning to our nations, cultures, and existence. They want their own unlimited personhood and no reminders that there is anything beyond themselves. If they are wrong, that means accountability. Ultimate accountability. It is like garlic or a crucifix to them.

The only reason soldiers dive on grenades is because there is truth beyond this existence. That is to say, we fight because life means something. The postmodernists surrender because life is meaningless to them.

Kid said...

I'm going to take a simple view. Liberals for the most part, who are old enough to not be excused as ignorant, are sociopaths.

They don't care about anyone else. As the liberal working in my office said about the Pirates holding the American crew for ransom - 'It's not my ship".

They are not patriotic. Being patriotic might cause them to have to be involved in something at some point in the future or admit outright that they were only kidding.

They cringe at the thought that they might be inconvenienced by a major effort on the part of the USA.

They don't want to haul a box of cookies to the post office to send to a Marine. Hell, they won't type an e-card well wish to a Marine on their computer. But they 'support the troops' because no piece of garbage like M Moore has come up with a decent excuse to not 'support the troops'. Though, I have run into one butthead who actually admits he does not support the troops, and I applaud him for his honesty. Because the other libs who support the troops? They're patheticly childish with their transparent lying, giving me yet another reason to pity them for their weakness.

Of course supporting the troops is really being in support of getting all those poor stupid slobs who only joined up to get some freebies back home. They don't want to be there saving the lives of decent people, immunizing entire village so that the majority of children won't grew up and have problems with their eyesight, working out a way to get a fresh water supply into an entire village, saving a beautiful child from indescribable brutality. Naw, they couldn't be interested in any of that right? Hell, the liberals don't even know stuff like that goe son over there, in part because they couldn't realte to it and because katie kouric the communist idiot would never dream of telling them.

This explains the troofers. In order to believe that Muslim Al Queerda people planned and perpetrated 9-11, would force them to get behind a war on terror and an entire group known as the Hirabi - The radical Muslim. Getting behind that war would cause them to be involved in things other than having sex and eating, and damn there isn't going to be any of that. No Sirree, they are willing to dump their entire stash of grey matter down the commode and believe that Dick Cheney and Condi Rice planned and perpetrated 9-11 so GWBush could go put the hammer down on the man that tried to have his father killed. No, No, this was only about getting Osammi bin Fartine. Only one man need be put in jail and we call it good.

Children being fed into wood chippers. Families, children, women, then the father shot in the head to fall into and be buried in a mass grave. Who cares! Hey, it's their way of life. Not My relatives!

And the real reasons - Saddammo was a WMD. Iraq is smack dab in the middle of the Middle East, and there is nothing wrong with tactics being employed along the way in the long war.

Liberals want nothing to do with anything that will inconvenience them and so they grab at whatever concepts are in play to allow them to be on the side of pacifism.

Anonymous said...

One more point (for I hear the rusty cogs in Scun's brain creaking) ... I said we fight because life means something.

I didn't say we fight because life means anything. I said it means something. There's a difference.

We can debate what that something is, for sure. That's what a free, democratic society does.

But, Scun, if we are debating whether life means anything at all, then you and I will be warring in some form or fashion eventually.

Opus #6 said...

Amazing arguments, Kid and DC. Sociopaths. You support that argument well. And not wanting to be inconvenienced also explains the alacrity with which they race to the abortion clinic.

Kid said...

Another good point Opus.

McGonagall said...

Teresa said...
"Pacifism is a pipe dream. It is something to strive for, but in the case of defense and terrorism it is highly unrealistic."

Scunnert said ... (two posts up from yours Teresa)
" ... here's my take on pacifism: It might work as long as you're too numerous to be annihilated or your enemy is too much of a gentleman to annihilate you and yer kin. Otherwise it's Arbeit Macht Frei."

But who bothers to read anymore when you can just assume ...?

Opus #6 said...
"Scun,
It is not that opposing views are unwelcome. But you have been rude to my friends Teresa and Rhod."

Opus - you're having a laugh.

Rhod said...
"We certainly made the mistake of taking you seriously, Scun.

Your defense of yourself is the sophomoric excuse that you've somehow risen above us, and it was all child's play. Anyone who followed the exchange knows you're full or it.

Scun, you're no challenge. You know that. Whatever makes you feel better."

Rhod - your razor sharp intellectually acuity saw through my agreement with your premise as a "sophomoric excuse that I'd risen above you". Well done.

Nickie Goomba said...
"Scunny,
There is a style in your criticism and assertions that I believe so perfectly captures the loose intellectual fluff that so easily passes for a point of view."

You mean that Democratic presidents didn't give larger increases to the military budget than Republican presidents?

DC said...
"Scunnert, aren't all wars "wars of aggression"?"

Well no DC they aren't. Perhaps "predatory" would be a better descriptor than "aggression". When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour they were the aggressors - it was a predatory attack. When Al Quaida attacked the twin towers they were the aggressors. In both cases the US in defending itself fought for a righteous cause - a war of national defense.

However, when the US (and co.) attacked Iraq they were the aggressors - the predators. I know, I know - Sadam was a bad guy - but he was largely a monster of America's creating. And I don't believe for one minute that the goal was to bring democracy to the region.

Ach - yer just a bunch of scallywags.

Opus #6 said...

Kid, let's call them "The Sociopaths of Convenience".

Kid said...

Opus, that's nicer than what I had in mind, but Ok. :)

Teresa said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Scun,

Who is it that takes himself too seriously? You seem to be building a case against all who have dared to speak against The Great Scunnert.

But here we go ... I know that ultimately you people will deconstruct every word spoken to where nothing means anything.

But ... all wars are predatory. All warriors, by definition, become predators. Ever heard of an ambush? Your quirky moralizing as you go approach is insane and nonsensical. You can rationalize every conflict to be one of a nation's own making. For instance, some say we pushed Japan into attacking us. Regardless (I don't buy this), they messed with the bull and rightly got the horns.

What standard of justice do you bear, any way? You have discarded them all. Your own standard? I don't like your standard. So, I win under your rules.

America invaded Iraq because we were concerned (rightly or wrongly) that Saddam could and would either destabilize the region and/or foment another terrorist attack with WMD against us. Your own intelligence thought he had WMD. Democracy and freedom to Iraqis is a secondary benefit. And now we are leaving.

When has one of your postmodern monster heroes ever left after he conquered a foe? They take up residence, root and rot the place. America is better than your postmodern heroes. I know that just grinds on you, but it's true.

Teresa said...

scunnert said,
"However, refusing to fight a war of aggression is not pacifism - it's just good manners."

That's what I was responding to when I commented. I didn't assume.

Your the only one here making assumptions and that makes you a horses A$$.

I agree with OPie. You are a "sociopath of convenience"

You are the one who has proven by your own words that you aren't able to read intelligibly.

And by the way, you have proven that you get the award for being the complainer of the century, I'm inferring that you complained about how much was spent on the wars. Plus, your promoting illogical pacifism here. The kind thats been proven not to work. So, Bush was a Republican President who spent more money than any Dem Pres. in recent history. Plus, George H.W. Bush went to war also, and spent more money on defense than any Dem Pres. in recent history. Democratic Presidents reduce military personnel and that results in the reduction of military spending.

Reality is only a pipe dream for you.

You have proven that your pants are too tight, and therefore cutting off the blood circulation to your brain.

Rhod said...

The socialist utopia of his life's dream didn't materialize, not even in the little place with a declining population where he lives.

His milieu has half the population of Manhattan, produced a midget on the world stage like Jimmy Reid, and Scunnert thinks Reid is worth a mention.

His image of the US is as nuanced, sophisticated and discerning as a falafel vendor in Turkey.

Those are Scunnert'g good points.

Rhod said...

To the point...Scun's frame of mind is, I think, the dominant one in the Euro zone. Let the dead bury the dead.

Clear out our military, cancel any concerns about their future, stop worrying about Islamization and Russian hegemony and propping up NATO.

It's over over there. It's what Scun wants, it's what THEY want, by and large.

McGonagall said...

The value of a nation is, in Rhod's opinion, directly correlated to the size of its population. He must accept then, you will agree, that China and India are more worthy than the US of A. A foolish notion - for surely the quality of life, the extent to which citizen's are free from government control and can exercise that freedom are a much sounder basis for judging a nation's value?

But this isn't really what Rhod had in mind I think. No, he was thinking in terms of world power. The ability to project power and impose your values on other nations is the test of relevance in his universe. And this must make him nervous as the US is in decline and those other "great nations" are assuming the ascendancy.

His secret fear (and that,I think, of other posters to this site)is that the US is becoming irrelevant - a has been nation. A nation that was once the engine of the industrial world, the leader in innovation, the creator of wealth, the champion of freedom - has now become a debtor nation to a Communist state. That must rankle.

And so I detect a certain nostalgia on this site. A desire to return to the golden age of America. To reassert the values that made America great. To stride across continents once again, secure in the notion that it is the birthright of America. A dream of days long gone.

It is right and good, therefore, that Iraq is subjugated, that Pakistani villages are terrorized by unmanned drones, and that anyone who questions this is attacked by the mob - something about enemies, both foreign and domestic.

Absent is any analysis of the real intent behind these military adventures. Iraq was invaded, not to provide Haliburton Corp with a cash cow or to secure oil for China's future needs, but to rid the world of Sadam's non-existent WMD's and bring freedom and democracy to all.

And there is a fall back position when the freedom and democracy fairytale is exposed: "We are Americans and reserve the right to kick ass." And that, ladies and gentlemen, is American foreign policy in all its naked and brutal truth. Only now the US of A is a proxy for the New World Order and represents not the American Dream, but the aspirations and security needs of a global elite.

Oh, BTW - after the Lisbon Treaty is ratified my "milieu" will be the European Union - a state with 500 million citizens and whose military, collectively, is the largest in the world.

How do ya like them apples?

Anonymous said...

All you do (and can do) is pose questions, for your world is devoid of answers. I assume -- though you don't say -- that there is some virtue in the magical Euro Union?

"Them apples" of some sort of mighty Euro fighting force is a hoot. Bring 'em to Texas. I bet they would grind to a halt at about Port Arthur.

Answer what makes a nation worth dying for and then we can talk. You run in circles and spin questions which all have as their subtext (and hope) that America is irrelvant, evil ... (ha, mighty judgmental of you, eh?), or, as Rhod puts it "a Turkish fast food stand". Our current government is like this, but we aren't our government.

So, what makes a nation or unions of nations worth fighting and dying for? Why is one better than the other? Is one better than the other? If so, why?

When it is it ever right to jump on a hand grenade to save a comrade and why? Answer these and then let's talk.

Rhod said...

Scunner, when you try to rise above triviality in your analyses of things, your upper limit is the banal.

You really need to squash your obsession with me, too. If you need to wool-gather, state your case as yours rather than a counterpoint to mine. You don't need my approval, Scunner.

You simply can't free yourself from your envy, hatred, self-pity and your fantasies of EU supremacy. The more you talk, the more ridiculous you sound. You're better at repartee.

Rhod said...

By the way, Scunner, your rote analysis of world/American affairs was lifted entirely from the left's old pschologizing about post-colonial Britain. I could have written your comment, and done better at it. You just transferred the cheap farce of leftist theorizing to the US.

You see, Scun, you're terribly derivative. You carry the obsolete forms of thinking that infected the elites and working class British - which is what you are - at the tail end of the UK's industrial power.

You're basically stuck in some parts of the 19th century and some parts of the mid-20th.

You're a relic, Scun. There's no more clear evidence of this than you pathetic dream that the sclerotic and declining pseudo-states of Europe will be a force to reckon with.

Dream on. Who cares? I don't.

TS/WS said...

Why do the Countries that have experienced a horrible catastrophe always call on the USA for help-because our values are the ones every one wants when in need?

Rhod said...

TSWS, they're going to learn what a post-American world is like. Maybe it's a good thing. Let the EU impose its Pax Europa. Heh.